BEN SMALL MP
FEDERAL MEMBER FOR FORREST
SHADOW ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR INFRASTRUCTURE
SHADOW ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR ELECTORAL MATTERS
OPPOSITION WHIP
ABC Afternoon Briefing
Television Transcript – Gambling Advertising Reform
2nd July 2026
Host: PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Guest Panellist: JULIAN HILL MP
Guest Panellist: BEN SMALL MP
STARTS
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
I want to bring my political panel for today. Julian Hill is the Assistant Minister for Multicultural Affairs, Customs and Citizenship. Ben Small is a Liberal MP and the Shadow Assistant Infrastructure Minister. Welcome to both of you.
BEN SMALL MP:
Hello.
JULIAN HILL MP:
Great to be with you.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
OK. End of a sitting fortnight. And then now there will be a break. But on two key changes you wanted to make, gambling and social media. They've gone to an inquiry. Jane Hume was on a little earlier and she made the argument, which I thought she made pretty well, that scrutiny is important and they’re processes to scrutinise that the bills would work well. Isn't that fair enough?
JULIAN HILL MP:
Well, you look at the substance and this is in the context, of course, of the government having got the tax cuts through and some really big reforms. And you're right, there's always unfinished business from every fortnight that we'll continue to deal with. But I'll make two points.
On the substance of each of those issues, we should be making progress. On the social media ban, this is broadly supported in the Australian community. It was the proverbial barbecue stopper. Parents want this protection through. It's been world leading; other countries are taking it up. The Government always said at the start, like any big new regime, that we'll look at it and we'll improve it as needed. This bill is really important. It increases the fines, it puts an obligation on the social media companies; Elon Musk, Google, Meta, the big kids, they'll be laughing about this because it gives them the opportunity over the next few months while the Senate's diddling around playing politics with an inquiry to destroy evidence, to destroy documents, this bill would increase the penalties, it’d require them to produce documents and it would give us powers to go after the third party agents like the age verification people so that we actually can make this work for families.
They shouldn't be stuck in an inquiry, they should be voting for it, not protecting the interests of trillionaires like Elon Musk.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
I'll let you reply to that and then we're going to talk about gambling.
BEN SMALL MP:
PK, these laws have got more holes than a well-loved set of undies, let's be honest. And particularly when it comes to gambling, the government tabled the Murphy report 1,100 days ago today. So frankly, the hide of the Member for Bruce and others to come into this Parliament and lecture the rest of us about the need for urgency when they have sat on this for three years. You've seen the outcry from the community today about the holes in the legislation, so let's actually let the Senate do its job. Let's take the time through the winter break to make sure the Australian community and all stakeholders can take this very ordinary legislation and hopefully make something good out of it.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Okay, the gambling laws.
JULIAN HILL MP:
Well, he didn't talk about the social media, did he?
BEN SMALL MP:
Well, I'm very happy to actually, because if Anika Wells spent less time flying around the world crowing about it, she might have delivered better legislation.
*INTERJECTION* - JULIAN HILL MP:
So why are you defending Elon Musk?
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Are you really defending Elon Musk? I'm not sure he has.
BEN SMALL MP:
I'm certainly not. So, this Minister has a demonstrated track record of presenting sloppy legislation to the Parliament and demanding that it be passed immediately. We've seen this happen with the social media ban and we're now trying to mop it up. So let's call in the clean-up crew on Aisle 9 before we pass the legislation on gambling and let's get it right.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Okay, let's talk about the gambling reforms. I had Tim Costello on the program. He's not happy with how far you've gone. But now we've got a real chorus growing of people in the Parliament concerned. Why not just ban these ads during sporting events?
JULIAN HILL MP:
So I saw most of your interview with Tim. Tim's someone I've known for 30 years and had the most enormous respect for his work over decades on this issue. Tim also acknowledged that there are many good things in this package that are genuine progress and welcomed them. Again, I make a couple of points. This is an incredibly important issue and horrific and traumatising for those affected. $32 billion lost to problem gambling.
*INTERJECTION* BEN SMALL MP:
And 1100 days of inaction. So how do you explain that, Julian?
JULIAN HILL MP:
Let me finish, Ben. Over many years I've had members, and I say that in plural, of my family touched by this. They're not my stories to tell, but I get it. Uh this bill represents progress. I can't help but observe on the bizarre contradiction between people complaining in the opposition and elsewhere, so-called progressives who want to claim that mantle or pretend to, complaining that this has taken too long and then say it's going too fast. This bill absolutely represents progress. It bans logos, it bans advertising on grounds where kids play, it restricts gambling ads during-
*INTERJECTION* PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Ok Tim Costello just said it doesn't go far enough. I want to pin you down on this.
JULIAN HILL MP:
Okay, absolutely.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Thank you very much. Are you prepared to go further if the Parliament Senate inquiry says you should?
JULIAN HILL MP:
Well, again, two points. It makes real progress and of course true progressives should bank the progress, vote for progress, bank the win.
*INTERJECTION* BEN SMALL MP:
Is footy time, family time, Julian or not? Why aren’t we banning these ads before and after sporting programs?
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Do you want that?
BEN SMALL MP:
We've been so clear, right.
*INTERJECTION* PATRICIA KARVELAS:
No, you haven't?
*INTERJECTION* JULIAN HILL MP:
You haven't got a position.
BEN SMALL MP:
You're dating that to Peter Dutton's original call for this, which I think was broadly respected across the Parliament. Footy time should be family time. So let's make sure we're not presenting children, watching sport with their parents, these sorts of ads. Why is it acceptable to have three ads per hour related to gambling during children's programming. Why is that acceptable? You guys have sat on this report for three years and this is what you've dished up-
*INTERJECTION* JULIAN HILL MP:
And you're now saying it’s going too fast?
*CONTINUING* BEN SMALL MP:
Honestly, it’s a disgrace. And this is what we’re seeing across Australia.
JULIAN HILL MP:
There's not a single specific suggestion from them. They should vote for progress if they're serious about the issue. And final thing, if they want to put forward amendments, then do so. They don't let any inquiry into an inquiry.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Let me ask you this question. Well, it's your legislation which is not just the inquiry, so know people do look-
JULIAN HILL MP:
it's a good bill. It does a lot.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
people look at legislation and they are entitled to that is the point of the parliament.
JULIAN HILL MP:
Well he chose to leave the Senate now he's back in the Senate I mean it's very confused over there
BEN SMALL MP:
I'm not back in the Senate mate I'm back in the House of Representatives with you thanks to the trust of the good people of Forrest.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Let me ask you this - this is getting, please.
BEN SMALL MP:
Anyone would think it's the end of a long sitting fortnight PK.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Geez I wonder why One Nation is surging in the polls be nice to each other can I ask you this?
BEN SMALL MP:
Please, please ‘mum’.
*Panel Laughs*
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
I know, I am being your journalist mum right now and I am behaving that way, that is true. Do you think that you should just ban those ads during sport, full stop. Is that your view?
BEN SMALL MP:
Personally, I'd have no problem with that. Australians like to have a punt in the right settings and we're not trying to get rid of that. We're Liberals, we believe in choice. But the things that the Coalition's called for, like changing the opt-out to an opt-in for gambling inducements is really sensible.
Something like 80% of Australians in polling want to see less of gambling advertising. So why should the default position from the Government be that people need to opt out when four in five Australians are so clear about this?
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Are you open to the opt-in instead?
JULIAN HILL MP:
Well there's a lot of snappy lines but you can put forward amendments. You know that's how it works. You've had three years, which is your point to think about it. If you’ve got amendments, put them forward.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
But I’m asking you not about the process because I love my viewers and I think process is boring. Ideas are where I'm focused. So, do you think the opt-in instead to advertising is something that should be explored?
JULIAN HILL MP:
Well, as I've said, and we're going around in circles, if people have ideas to put forward, then we're the Government and we consider them in a proper way. We want to get this Bill through the Senate, make no mistake. We want this to become law. We want these protections. So, if Ben or any of his colleagues, crossbenchers, so-called progressives that often don't vote for progress but like to carry on, if any of them want to put forward amendments, including the one you've put forward, we'll look at it seriously. We want the bill passed.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Ok I want to change the topic, the midwinter ball was on your leader Angus Taylor has been criticised widely for bombing in his speech but this really follows a week of speculation about his leadership and concern around that 17% figure. Is that acceptable where you're at? Is this just a situation that you're going to continue with?
BEN SMALL MP:
Look I thought the first rule of the midwinter ball was we didn't talk about the midwinter ball PK but anyway, I wasn't there, I've never been and I don't plan to go anytime soon. So, I'll leave the commentary on that to others.
But look, I think our focus needs to be on the economy. The economy is tanking under this government, particularly post budget, right? Australians are poorer today than the day that this mob took office. They've had 1100 days on the Gambling report. I don't know what they've been doing, I do know what they've been doing actually because we've seen interest rates up 15 times-
*INTERJECTION* PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Ok taking you back to the 17%
*CONTINUING* BEN SMALL MP:
we've seen inflation high and that's why-
*INTERJECTION* PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Is that a situation that will continue?
No I don’t think so because Angus's Budget reply set out our clear alternative for the Australian economy. And our tax back guarantee, with an automatic tax cut for every Australian every year at $400 this year, is already-
*INTERJECTION* PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Have the numbers gone down since that was announced? A
*CONTINUING* BEN SMALL MP:
Almost double. Almost double the WATO that the Government's planning to, you know, give everybody next year ‘so charitably’.
So, I think that when our message is clear to Australians, and we've got to argue this all day, every day, PK, because, you know, politics is tough. We're half the size, roughly, of the Labor government, so that means our players on the field have got to do twice the work, and I'm looking forward to doing that over the winter break.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Angus Taylor, does he have a time frame to turn it around by the end of the year?
BEN SMALL MP:
Angus Taylor's got my absolute support to lead the Liberal Party, because in the short time he's been leader, he's laying down those clear markers. We will end Labor's failures on migration and tie it to housing completions. We have an economic plan to deliver rising standard of living again. Australians are poorer today than they were when this Labor Government took over.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Well, why was the Prime Minister so mean about Angus Taylor's speech in question time?
JULIAN HILL MP:
Um well, what I'll say on the speech-
*INTERJECTION* BEN SMALL MP:
He’s a mean guy.
*CONTINUING* JULIAN HILL MP:
is I'm not going into specific. I've been to many mid-winter balls, not all, probably been to about half. I was sitting at the table right at the front, closest to Angus, a couple of metres away. I tried to laugh because I actually got so awkward I felt sorry for the guy. It wasn't funny and it was like a bullying year 12 school captain punching down on little kids. It wasn't a great speech. Whoever wrote it for him.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Who were the little kids in this story?
JULIAN HILL MP:
Well, the journalists, his colleagues. It was weird. It wasn't funny. But look, on the substance, I'll just make two points, given you're talking about the end of the parliamentary fortnight. What we've seen is the three right-wing parties trying to out One Nation each other.
BEN SMALL MP:
And the two left-wing parties, being Labor and the Greens are trying to punch everything through.
JULIAN HILL MP:
If you want to go to the polling, you know, polls come, polls go, right? The only trend that I can observe in the last nine months is the complete collapse of the Coalition vote. as people who are disgruntled and, you know upset with…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
You’re losing votes too.
JULIAN HILL MP:
Well, no, that's the structural trend is the collapse of the Coalition vote. That's what we've seen.
*INTERJECTION* BEN SMALL MP:
You know what else is collapsing? House prices. This is a result of your economic failures.
JULIAN HILL MP:
You're wanna talk about house prices? They are the only people in the country who think that the housing market isn't cooked and that nothing should change. I don't reckon Angus will be there by Christmas.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
I don't know, but it's an interesting perspective. and I want to thank you for coming in
BEN SMALL MP:
Great to be with you.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
And being your journalist mum for the afternoon. Eat your vegetables!
JULIAN HILL MP:
Thanks PK.
BEN SMALL MP:
Thank you very much. See you on the other side.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
That was Julian Hill, the Assistant Minister for Multicultural Affairs, Customs and Citizenship and Ben Small, Liberal MP and Shadow Assistant Infrastructure Minister.
ENDS